BD with close to stock bedfloor, backhalf, Need some ideas and pics.
1841 views
74 replies
46 following
K
BD with close to stock bedfloor, backhalf, Need some ideas and pics.
BADHABITMAN
+1y
call me if you're serious. Oklahoma is not that far. I'd be willing to meet you half way. 559-276-5026. Jeremy
dssur
+1y
wow badhabitman, I havent seen much unique work lately but that framework is gorgeous.
layinbody31
+1y
Edited: 1/16/2007 8:46:48 PM by layinbody31
hey guys this is Brent the owner of the black Xcab 1st gen that Seth has been posting pics of and you all have been critiquing. First of all....thanks to all who complimented my work and design. Secondly...I would like to answer as many questions as possible that you guys have posted here but don't want to have to make a bajillion posts to do so haha. I'll try to cover as many issues as possible with this post.
First...for those who thought that lift would be bad with the frame designed the way it was I will tell you this. With a 25.5" tall tire on the rear axle the truck gets 9.125" of lift in the rear. I plan on eventually running a 28.5" tall tire out back so that will give me 10.625" of lift out back. Not bad for a 'limited amount' of lift.
As far as the frame 'looking like a bunch of pieces of scrap welded together' I agree to a point. Sure I could have made the frame out of fully mandrel bent tubing but I didn't have a mandrel bender let alone any form of tubing bender for that matter. What I did have was a Millermatic 250 welder and $300 worth of steel tubing. I had a garage to work in (no frame table) and a summer home from college. Sure I spent a bit more than $300 on the frame but realistically it wasn't any major amount of money that any broke-ass college student like myself wouldn't have been able to afford. Basically what I'm saying is that I utilized all the resources that were available to me as a 19 year old college student and what you see is the product of those resources. Now that I'm a year or so older and have a bit more resources I could definately build something a little more pleasing to the eyes, but I'm not gonna trash this frame just becuase its not as aesthetically pleasing as possible.
Oh and before I forget to mention.....THE FRAME IS NOT DONE NOR IS IT CLOSE TO BEING DONE. That goes out to those who say that it looks unsafe or weak because of the lack of gussets, etc. I still have a lot of work to do on the frame itself before the truck will amount to anything thats driveable. As for the bodymount comment....I have laser cut bodymounts that are going on the frame. The stock mounts were only used to get the cab down where I needed it to be for mock up of certain things and also because I hadn't gotten the new bodymounts in from the laser cutter yet.
Now we come to the confusing part of things. A lot of you are saying that the 4link will not work at all. Well to quell your fears, the 4link works perfectly fine with no binding whatsoever. To the person who said that it seemed like it would work just like a parallel 4link, you are correct. It works exactly like any other parallel 4link other than the fact that both tabs and link bars mount under the axle. To those who were concerned that the tabs were not strong enough, I share your fears. The next time the truck drives it will have a much stronger axle in it and when the axle is in the process of being narrowed I plan to get full wrap around mounts laser cut so that I can slide them over the tubes before the ends are welded back on. To those who said that I might as well have put the upper bars on top of the axle because it would have still been lower than the pumpkin here is my reasoning. As it sits right now, the lower bars almost hit the bottom of the bedfloor with the current (junk) bed cut the way it is (it was cut like this before I started the bodydrop ). Even though the pumpkin sticks up through the bedfloor along with about half of the axle tube the bars do not. If I would have put the upper bars on top of the axle and still tried to clear the stock height bedfloor, the bars would have to be about 12" long and would have to have a huge angle on them when layed out. The way the bars are currently mounted, they are able to be 30" long which gives me 1/4" of front to back axle movement throughout the 9.125" of axle travel. In other words...my rear wheels stay perfectly centered in the wheelwells throughout the entire range of suspension travel. To the person that said I'd have to cut out a huge chunk of bedfloor for the driveshaft anyway you're somewhat right but also somewhat wrong. The stock driveshaft clears the front bed crossmember by about 1-1.5" (welded square stock running side to side on the angled supports). I may have to cut about 3-5" forward of the u-joint on the diff for the driveshaft but thats about it.
A few people were coming up with some crazy stuff saying that the link bars were mounted on the same plane (???) and that they would never work the way they're mounted, etc. I would honestly like you guys to try to explain this a little better because I'm pretty knowledgeable about suspensions and their geometry and how to build a proper functioning setup and some of the stuff you guys were saying was confusing even me. Like how the lower bar will 'push' and the upper bar will 'pull'? Since when do link bars exert forces on the axle?? I'm pretty sure its the axle that exerts forces on the link bars, but correct me if I'm wrong...
If anybody has any other questions feel free to post them up and I will try to reply as best as I can. Thanks again to all who have complimented my work. I'll leave you guys with some more pictures of the truck, but keep in mind that the body has never been mounted (it has only ever just rested on the frame) and that that frame is far from being done. I haven't been able to work on the truck for over a year now due to being super busy with working full time and going to collge full time as well. Not to mention that I got into debt really badly and have been trying to get out of debt before spending a lot more money on custom trucks. Anywho...on with the pics (I hope this works right.....)
hey guys this is Brent the owner of the black Xcab 1st gen that Seth has been posting pics of and you all have been critiquing. First of all....thanks to all who complimented my work and design. Secondly...I would like to answer as many questions as possible that you guys have posted here but don't want to have to make a bajillion posts to do so haha. I'll try to cover as many issues as possible with this post.
First...for those who thought that lift would be bad with the frame designed the way it was I will tell you this. With a 25.5" tall tire on the rear axle the truck gets 9.125" of lift in the rear. I plan on eventually running a 28.5" tall tire out back so that will give me 10.625" of lift out back. Not bad for a 'limited amount' of lift.
As far as the frame 'looking like a bunch of pieces of scrap welded together' I agree to a point. Sure I could have made the frame out of fully mandrel bent tubing but I didn't have a mandrel bender let alone any form of tubing bender for that matter. What I did have was a Millermatic 250 welder and $300 worth of steel tubing. I had a garage to work in (no frame table) and a summer home from college. Sure I spent a bit more than $300 on the frame but realistically it wasn't any major amount of money that any broke-ass college student like myself wouldn't have been able to afford. Basically what I'm saying is that I utilized all the resources that were available to me as a 19 year old college student and what you see is the product of those resources. Now that I'm a year or so older and have a bit more resources I could definately build something a little more pleasing to the eyes, but I'm not gonna trash this frame just becuase its not as aesthetically pleasing as possible.
Oh and before I forget to mention.....THE FRAME IS NOT DONE NOR IS IT CLOSE TO BEING DONE. That goes out to those who say that it looks unsafe or weak because of the lack of gussets, etc. I still have a lot of work to do on the frame itself before the truck will amount to anything thats driveable. As for the bodymount comment....I have laser cut bodymounts that are going on the frame. The stock mounts were only used to get the cab down where I needed it to be for mock up of certain things and also because I hadn't gotten the new bodymounts in from the laser cutter yet.
Now we come to the confusing part of things. A lot of you are saying that the 4link will not work at all. Well to quell your fears, the 4link works perfectly fine with no binding whatsoever. To the person who said that it seemed like it would work just like a parallel 4link, you are correct. It works exactly like any other parallel 4link other than the fact that both tabs and link bars mount under the axle. To those who were concerned that the tabs were not strong enough, I share your fears. The next time the truck drives it will have a much stronger axle in it and when the axle is in the process of being narrowed I plan to get full wrap around mounts laser cut so that I can slide them over the tubes before the ends are welded back on. To those who said that I might as well have put the upper bars on top of the axle because it would have still been lower than the pumpkin here is my reasoning. As it sits right now, the lower bars almost hit the bottom of the bedfloor with the current (junk) bed cut the way it is (it was cut like this before I started the bodydrop ). Even though the pumpkin sticks up through the bedfloor along with about half of the axle tube the bars do not. If I would have put the upper bars on top of the axle and still tried to clear the stock height bedfloor, the bars would have to be about 12" long and would have to have a huge angle on them when layed out. The way the bars are currently mounted, they are able to be 30" long which gives me 1/4" of front to back axle movement throughout the 9.125" of axle travel. In other words...my rear wheels stay perfectly centered in the wheelwells throughout the entire range of suspension travel. To the person that said I'd have to cut out a huge chunk of bedfloor for the driveshaft anyway you're somewhat right but also somewhat wrong. The stock driveshaft clears the front bed crossmember by about 1-1.5" (welded square stock running side to side on the angled supports). I may have to cut about 3-5" forward of the u-joint on the diff for the driveshaft but thats about it.
A few people were coming up with some crazy stuff saying that the link bars were mounted on the same plane (???) and that they would never work the way they're mounted, etc. I would honestly like you guys to try to explain this a little better because I'm pretty knowledgeable about suspensions and their geometry and how to build a proper functioning setup and some of the stuff you guys were saying was confusing even me. Like how the lower bar will 'push' and the upper bar will 'pull'? Since when do link bars exert forces on the axle?? I'm pretty sure its the axle that exerts forces on the link bars, but correct me if I'm wrong...
If anybody has any other questions feel free to post them up and I will try to reply as best as I can. Thanks again to all who have complimented my work. I'll leave you guys with some more pictures of the truck, but keep in mind that the body has never been mounted (it has only ever just rested on the frame) and that that frame is far from being done. I haven't been able to work on the truck for over a year now due to being super busy with working full time and going to collge full time as well. Not to mention that I got into debt really badly and have been trying to get out of debt before spending a lot more money on custom trucks. Anywho...on with the pics (I hope this works right.....)
dssur
+1y
Originally posted by layinbody31
I'm pretty knowledgeable about suspensions and their geometry and how to build a proper functioning setup and some of the stuff you guys were saying was confusing even me. Like how the lower bar will 'push' and the upper bar will 'pull'? Since when do link bars exert forces on the axle?? I'm pretty sure its the axle that exerts forces on the link bars, but correct me if I'm wrong...
ok, you are wrong. The arc of operation of each set of bars when lifted or dropped(actually the DIFFERENCE in the two arcs of operation) push and pull the on axle and makes it rotate about the center of some imaginary point, usually the axle in a system that has bars mounted above and below. This allows you to plan for pinion change. Your system has a rotation axis below the axle, which makes it as effective as maybe ladder bars, with twice the number of bars and a couple extra bushings. Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!
It was me who was picking on it, its a poor way to save 3 inches of bed floor, and I stand behind what I said about enough grip or enough power giving you problems with the way it is setup.
I'm pretty knowledgeable about suspensions and their geometry and how to build a proper functioning setup and some of the stuff you guys were saying was confusing even me. Like how the lower bar will 'push' and the upper bar will 'pull'? Since when do link bars exert forces on the axle?? I'm pretty sure its the axle that exerts forces on the link bars, but correct me if I'm wrong...
ok, you are wrong. The arc of operation of each set of bars when lifted or dropped(actually the DIFFERENCE in the two arcs of operation) push and pull the on axle and makes it rotate about the center of some imaginary point, usually the axle in a system that has bars mounted above and below. This allows you to plan for pinion change. Your system has a rotation axis below the axle, which makes it as effective as maybe ladder bars, with twice the number of bars and a couple extra bushings. Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!
It was me who was picking on it, its a poor way to save 3 inches of bed floor, and I stand behind what I said about enough grip or enough power giving you problems with the way it is setup.
dssur
+1y
I did like the underdog frame though, I didnt think it was done, it will be a lot prettier with the welds ground and some plates at the joints.
impulse
+1y
Again... not to bash you or anything, but you could have had way less pieces welded together to make that frame and have it look way cleaner and not have so many weak points due to having so many random pieces welded together.
Just my opinion though, I like to think long and hard about every part of my truck before I actually go ahead and do it so that I avoid having it look like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush.
Just my opinion though, I like to think long and hard about every part of my truck before I actually go ahead and do it so that I avoid having it look like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush.
TwistedMinis
+1y
Those first two are the pics I was looking for. I spent like an hour looking for them, lol.
I still think it would be a good idea to put the upper tabs on the front side of the axle. It will still keep them low, and will put less stress on eveerything and overall work better.
I still think it would be a good idea to put the upper tabs on the front side of the axle. It will still keep them low, and will put less stress on eveerything and overall work better.
layinbody31
+1y
Originally posted by Russ-D
ok, you are wrong. The arc of operation of each set of bars when lifted or dropped(actually the DIFFERENCE in the two arcs of operation) push and pull the on axle and makes it rotate about the center of some imaginary point, usually the axle in a system that has bars mounted above and below. This allows you to plan for pinion change. Your system has a rotation axis below the axle, which makes it as effective as maybe ladder bars, with twice the number of bars and a couple extra bushings. Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!
It was me who was picking on it, its a poor way to save 3 inches of bed floor, and I stand behind what I said about enough grip or enough power giving you problems with the way it is setup.
OK I understand what you're saying about the bars pivoting the axle around a central point that is located halfway between the upper and lower bushings that are mounted to the axle. Since the actual center of the axle is about 5" or so above this point, any rotation (pinion angle change in a normal 4link setup) will be amplified due to the lever from this point to the actual axle/pinion. So in effect, if I had drastically different upper and lower bar lengths that gave me lots of pinion angle change over the range of travel (such as a KP 4 or 6 link) it would result in the whole axle drastically pitching forwards or backwards within the frame changing the wheelbase and pinion angle severely with its motion. That is why my bars are 30+ inches long and the travel is limited to 9". As I stated earlier, having it setup like this gives me ZERO pinion angle change over the entire 9" of travel and only makes the rear wheels move 1/4" overall front to back within the wheelwells, keeping them essentially centered over the entire range of travel.
You say "Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!"
More rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars? Did you not notice that I have upper and lower bars that are mounted exactly like a conventional parallel 4link, just that the whole thing is moved downward about 5" from normal? What exactly are you thinking would cause the lower bars to bind at a point when they are level? And how are you thinking that having longer lower tabs would 'fix this problem to an extent'? In fact...the lower bars are level at my ride height and there is no remote indication of binding anywhere throughout the entire range of travel. The lower bars 'appear to violate scrub'? Can you explain what you mean by this?
And as far as the flat tire comment...why do you hope I never get one? Its pretty obvious by the pictures that have been posted that the radius of the rim is larger than the length of the lower bar tabs, so if I did indeed get a flat, the lower bars and tabs wouldn't be dragging the ground like I think you're trying to imply. I did think through a lot of things about this setup before I just went and built it. And if you meant that you hoped I didn't get a flat when running rims of a smaller diameter I would agree with you because in that case the tabs would be longer than the radius of the rim. HOWEVER, I plan to run HUGE brakes on this truck that would require 18" or larger wheels at all times (it is on 18s in all the pics) so the long tabs would not be a problem with that being the case
ok, you are wrong. The arc of operation of each set of bars when lifted or dropped(actually the DIFFERENCE in the two arcs of operation) push and pull the on axle and makes it rotate about the center of some imaginary point, usually the axle in a system that has bars mounted above and below. This allows you to plan for pinion change. Your system has a rotation axis below the axle, which makes it as effective as maybe ladder bars, with twice the number of bars and a couple extra bushings. Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!
It was me who was picking on it, its a poor way to save 3 inches of bed floor, and I stand behind what I said about enough grip or enough power giving you problems with the way it is setup.
OK I understand what you're saying about the bars pivoting the axle around a central point that is located halfway between the upper and lower bushings that are mounted to the axle. Since the actual center of the axle is about 5" or so above this point, any rotation (pinion angle change in a normal 4link setup) will be amplified due to the lever from this point to the actual axle/pinion. So in effect, if I had drastically different upper and lower bar lengths that gave me lots of pinion angle change over the range of travel (such as a KP 4 or 6 link) it would result in the whole axle drastically pitching forwards or backwards within the frame changing the wheelbase and pinion angle severely with its motion. That is why my bars are 30+ inches long and the travel is limited to 9". As I stated earlier, having it setup like this gives me ZERO pinion angle change over the entire 9" of travel and only makes the rear wheels move 1/4" overall front to back within the wheelwells, keeping them essentially centered over the entire range of travel.
You say "Your system will shed and gain angle on the axle more rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars, and will bind at a point where the longer lower bars are almost level. Which your long lower tabs fix to an extent, except that they appear to violate scrub. That doesnt seem like something someone with a little bit of suspension knowledge would do, hope you never have a flat!"
More rapidly than a system with upper and lower bars? Did you not notice that I have upper and lower bars that are mounted exactly like a conventional parallel 4link, just that the whole thing is moved downward about 5" from normal? What exactly are you thinking would cause the lower bars to bind at a point when they are level? And how are you thinking that having longer lower tabs would 'fix this problem to an extent'? In fact...the lower bars are level at my ride height and there is no remote indication of binding anywhere throughout the entire range of travel. The lower bars 'appear to violate scrub'? Can you explain what you mean by this?
And as far as the flat tire comment...why do you hope I never get one? Its pretty obvious by the pictures that have been posted that the radius of the rim is larger than the length of the lower bar tabs, so if I did indeed get a flat, the lower bars and tabs wouldn't be dragging the ground like I think you're trying to imply. I did think through a lot of things about this setup before I just went and built it. And if you meant that you hoped I didn't get a flat when running rims of a smaller diameter I would agree with you because in that case the tabs would be longer than the radius of the rim. HOWEVER, I plan to run HUGE brakes on this truck that would require 18" or larger wheels at all times (it is on 18s in all the pics) so the long tabs would not be a problem with that being the case
layinbody31
+1y
Originally posted by Russ-D
I did like the underdog frame though, I didnt think it was done, it will be a lot prettier with the welds ground and some plates at the joints.
thanks for the compliment. I've never heard it called 'underdog' but I like that! When its all finally done (it may be 2017 haha) it will for sure be pretty even though its all cut and welded square tubing. It will all be gusseted to be plenty strong and then everything will get smoothed out and painted to look good in that aspect as well
I did like the underdog frame though, I didnt think it was done, it will be a lot prettier with the welds ground and some plates at the joints.
thanks for the compliment. I've never heard it called 'underdog' but I like that! When its all finally done (it may be 2017 haha) it will for sure be pretty even though its all cut and welded square tubing. It will all be gusseted to be plenty strong and then everything will get smoothed out and painted to look good in that aspect as well
layinbody31
+1y
Originally posted by iLLairgasm
Again... not to bash you or anything, but you could have had way less pieces welded together to make that frame and have it look way cleaner and not have so many weak points due to having so many random pieces welded together.
Just my opinion though, I like to think long and hard about every part of my truck before I actually go ahead and do it so that I avoid having it look like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush.
I agree that I could have had less pieces. There are several spots that I wish I would have made mitre cuts instead of adding an extra piece. But I was younger and not as knowledgeable and I was also working with what I had (like I said earlier) which as far as cutting went was a somewhat inaccurate chop saw and a 4.5" angle grinder. So considering the available resources, I think I did alright for myself.
But trust me...I wish there were a lot of things about the frame I could re-do now that I have a little more knowledge and more resources available to me. But I'm not gonna cut up what I've already done just to make it look better. This probably won't be the final frame for the truck, but it will get the job done and be functional and unique until I can build 'the final frame' the 'right way' with all the proper tools etc. This frame was really just a means for me to learn by and teach me it has.
I honestly hope you don't think it looks like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush...
Again... not to bash you or anything, but you could have had way less pieces welded together to make that frame and have it look way cleaner and not have so many weak points due to having so many random pieces welded together.
Just my opinion though, I like to think long and hard about every part of my truck before I actually go ahead and do it so that I avoid having it look like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush.
I agree that I could have had less pieces. There are several spots that I wish I would have made mitre cuts instead of adding an extra piece. But I was younger and not as knowledgeable and I was also working with what I had (like I said earlier) which as far as cutting went was a somewhat inaccurate chop saw and a 4.5" angle grinder. So considering the available resources, I think I did alright for myself.
But trust me...I wish there were a lot of things about the frame I could re-do now that I have a little more knowledge and more resources available to me. But I'm not gonna cut up what I've already done just to make it look better. This probably won't be the final frame for the truck, but it will get the job done and be functional and unique until I can build 'the final frame' the 'right way' with all the proper tools etc. This frame was really just a means for me to learn by and teach me it has.
I honestly hope you don't think it looks like i just threw it together in a mad thoughtless rush...