i need some help understanding please!!!!!
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i need some help understanding please!!!!!
dssur
+1y
the sanden 508 has a separate port for oil like the yorks. This oil system on the yorks and sandens could not possibly be conjoined with the refrigerant, because you would lose refrigerant every time you opened the oil fill.
Additionally, if the oil was injected into the refrigerant lines it woould casue a pressure change in the sealed AC system. Cant change the laws of physics, Mike, the decreased volume in the lines with oil continuously being added would equal a pressure increase. Without a way to remove the oil from the lines, this would be a perpetual increase as the oil level in the resevior dropped and the oil volume in the lines increased, leading to an over pressure of the AC system.
No, instead, I think the Sanden and Yorks work like other piston engines, namely combustion engines, where the oil in the pan is not intended to mix with the air in the combustion chamber. Some leaks by the oil ring, sure, that is a byproduct of tolerancing for operation. But they are intended to be separate.
They could possibly use a oil in the lines when using a refrigerant, but again it would have to be added to the lines and it would not share a connection with the oil in the body.
Additionally, if the oil was injected into the refrigerant lines it woould casue a pressure change in the sealed AC system. Cant change the laws of physics, Mike, the decreased volume in the lines with oil continuously being added would equal a pressure increase. Without a way to remove the oil from the lines, this would be a perpetual increase as the oil level in the resevior dropped and the oil volume in the lines increased, leading to an over pressure of the AC system.
No, instead, I think the Sanden and Yorks work like other piston engines, namely combustion engines, where the oil in the pan is not intended to mix with the air in the combustion chamber. Some leaks by the oil ring, sure, that is a byproduct of tolerancing for operation. But they are intended to be separate.
They could possibly use a oil in the lines when using a refrigerant, but again it would have to be added to the lines and it would not share a connection with the oil in the body.
olskoolpup
+1y
Originally posted by Russ-D
They could possibly use a oil in the lines when using a refrigerant, but again it would have to be added to the lines and it would not share a connection with the oil in the body.
yea, i think most ac systems have an oil added with the refrigerant, whether it be an open or closed oiling system.
They could possibly use a oil in the lines when using a refrigerant, but again it would have to be added to the lines and it would not share a connection with the oil in the body.
yea, i think most ac systems have an oil added with the refrigerant, whether it be an open or closed oiling system.
DawgsledMazda
+1y
actually the York and Sanden both have internal passages for the refrigerant oil to lube the bearings and then go back into the system.
an A/C system MUST have oil in the lines with the refrigerant to operate properly.
most automotive systems have about 14 ounces of oil in the system. when you replace the system, you put in 8 ounces for the compressor, 2 ounces for the accumulator, 2 for the evaporator and 2 for the condenser.
the oil comes in and goes thru the cylinders with the refirgerant. a certain amount stays in the bottom of the compressor for crack oiling. even the units without an internal oilpan have oil in the crankcase area.
ones with the flat disc that pushes the pistons back and forth also have oil that stays in the lower case. the passages between this and the outboard side of the unit keeps just the right amount in there for crank oiling. this is a "radial" compressor. most Sanden compressors have 5 pistons with a round plate thats on a shaft at an angle to push the piston back and forth. Sanden compressors used to be called by the name Sankyo when they were imported. now most are made at the plant here in Wylie Texas.
the old style GM A-6 found on GM cars from the 50s thru the 80s had a small indention or oilpan on the bottom. this area held the excess oil until the system needed it. thos compressors always leaked around the ceramic shaft seal behind the clutch, and even GM service manuals call it "normal"
look under the hood nof a GM car from the 70s or 80s and notice a black streak of oil on the bottom side of the hood just above the compressor.
this is the reason for the York oil mod. this stops that passage from letting the oil back into the lines.
the Tecumseh is the same compressor design as the York except the case is cast iron.
Im fully aware that you cant argue with physics. but before you throw that out there, maybe you need to go to A/C school and find out how an aircontitioning system actually works.
Ive been a certified A/C tech since 1982. ive rebuilt compressors and complete systems. although I havent done any A/C work on a regular basis for several years, I do still do some when something breaks.
I was however an A/C tech back when the York was one of the units we worked on regularly.
I also know that if you do the oil mod on a York and dont have a little oil still coming in, you will scorch the cylinders.
you read about it all the time, people burning up a York, even though they had the oil mod done. they still need oil in the cylinder, just like a Gas engine that runs out of gas on the highway, if you dont pull the car out of gear and let the engine keep turning, you will scorch a cylinder.
race cars do this all the time. same thing on the York, they get realk hot from continuous use and burn up.
the oil pan on the York will leak refrigerant if you open it while its pressurized. the refrigerant will leak back thru the hole that the oil normally goes the other way thru and also some will go past the piston rings.
im not some dumb kid who knows nothing about this. anyone that knows anything about an automotive A/C system, please explain to the class how an A/C system actually works, how it cools the cars interior.
ill be really impressed if someone knows without looking it up online.
an A/C system MUST have oil in the lines with the refrigerant to operate properly.
most automotive systems have about 14 ounces of oil in the system. when you replace the system, you put in 8 ounces for the compressor, 2 ounces for the accumulator, 2 for the evaporator and 2 for the condenser.
the oil comes in and goes thru the cylinders with the refirgerant. a certain amount stays in the bottom of the compressor for crack oiling. even the units without an internal oilpan have oil in the crankcase area.
ones with the flat disc that pushes the pistons back and forth also have oil that stays in the lower case. the passages between this and the outboard side of the unit keeps just the right amount in there for crank oiling. this is a "radial" compressor. most Sanden compressors have 5 pistons with a round plate thats on a shaft at an angle to push the piston back and forth. Sanden compressors used to be called by the name Sankyo when they were imported. now most are made at the plant here in Wylie Texas.
the old style GM A-6 found on GM cars from the 50s thru the 80s had a small indention or oilpan on the bottom. this area held the excess oil until the system needed it. thos compressors always leaked around the ceramic shaft seal behind the clutch, and even GM service manuals call it "normal"
look under the hood nof a GM car from the 70s or 80s and notice a black streak of oil on the bottom side of the hood just above the compressor.
this is the reason for the York oil mod. this stops that passage from letting the oil back into the lines.
the Tecumseh is the same compressor design as the York except the case is cast iron.
Im fully aware that you cant argue with physics. but before you throw that out there, maybe you need to go to A/C school and find out how an aircontitioning system actually works.
Ive been a certified A/C tech since 1982. ive rebuilt compressors and complete systems. although I havent done any A/C work on a regular basis for several years, I do still do some when something breaks.
I was however an A/C tech back when the York was one of the units we worked on regularly.
I also know that if you do the oil mod on a York and dont have a little oil still coming in, you will scorch the cylinders.
you read about it all the time, people burning up a York, even though they had the oil mod done. they still need oil in the cylinder, just like a Gas engine that runs out of gas on the highway, if you dont pull the car out of gear and let the engine keep turning, you will scorch a cylinder.
race cars do this all the time. same thing on the York, they get realk hot from continuous use and burn up.
the oil pan on the York will leak refrigerant if you open it while its pressurized. the refrigerant will leak back thru the hole that the oil normally goes the other way thru and also some will go past the piston rings.
im not some dumb kid who knows nothing about this. anyone that knows anything about an automotive A/C system, please explain to the class how an A/C system actually works, how it cools the cars interior.
ill be really impressed if someone knows without looking it up online.
dssur
+1y
Originally posted by DawgsledMazda
Im fully aware that you cant argue with physics. but before you throw that out there, maybe you need to go to A/C school and find out how an aircontitioning system actually works
Haha I'm pretty sure I covered gas laws in Chemistry, Physics I, and Thermodynamics. Probably a little more in depth than an AC tech anyway.
Im fully aware that you cant argue with physics. but before you throw that out there, maybe you need to go to A/C school and find out how an aircontitioning system actually works
Haha I'm pretty sure I covered gas laws in Chemistry, Physics I, and Thermodynamics. Probably a little more in depth than an AC tech anyway.
DawgsledMazda
+1y
gas laws in chemistry have very little to do with the fact that both compressors in question have oil that goes back and forth between the oilpan area and the refrigerant. those are facts that you probably didnt cover in chemistry.
not trying to be a dick but the laws of physics were never in question here. just how the oiling system works on these compressors.
I assume we were both talking inside the realm of physics as it applies to this topic.
so physics and chemistry have little do to with the practical application in this case.
not trying to be a dick but the laws of physics were never in question here. just how the oiling system works on these compressors.
I assume we were both talking inside the realm of physics as it applies to this topic.
so physics and chemistry have little do to with the practical application in this case.
dssur
+1y
Originally posted by DawgsledMazda
gas laws in chemistry have very little to do with the fact that both compressors in question have oil that goes back and forth between the oilpan area and the refrigerant. those are facts that you probably didnt cover in chemistry.
not trying to be a dick but the laws of physics were never in question here. just how the oiling system works on these compressors.
I assume we were both talking inside the realm of physics as it applies to this topic.
so physics and chemistry have little do to with the practical application in this case.
I mainatain that any lubrication on the head side of the piston is unneeded, and that if the york or sanden compressor injects any oil into the line it is likely a very very small amount, and is only done to keep seals from drying out. Gas laws tell me that volume, pressure, and temperature are all related by a gas constant, and that if you pump oil into the lines without a way to remove it the volume will decrease and the pressure will increase, increasing temperature and making the air conditioner less effective.
So it is for that reason I suspect the oil/gas combined compressors were developed, to combat the constant maintenance needed with the separated oil/gas compressors like the york and sanden.
I wonder which is larger, the R12 or oil molecule? Gas (not gasoline, gases like oxygen) and oil dont mix, but refrigerant gas under pressure suggest to me that that gas molecule is smaller than the oil molecule (chemistry). If this is true, there would be NO WAY to recover the oil from the line back to the crankcase without allowing the gas to escape as well.
gas laws in chemistry have very little to do with the fact that both compressors in question have oil that goes back and forth between the oilpan area and the refrigerant. those are facts that you probably didnt cover in chemistry.
not trying to be a dick but the laws of physics were never in question here. just how the oiling system works on these compressors.
I assume we were both talking inside the realm of physics as it applies to this topic.
so physics and chemistry have little do to with the practical application in this case.
I mainatain that any lubrication on the head side of the piston is unneeded, and that if the york or sanden compressor injects any oil into the line it is likely a very very small amount, and is only done to keep seals from drying out. Gas laws tell me that volume, pressure, and temperature are all related by a gas constant, and that if you pump oil into the lines without a way to remove it the volume will decrease and the pressure will increase, increasing temperature and making the air conditioner less effective.
So it is for that reason I suspect the oil/gas combined compressors were developed, to combat the constant maintenance needed with the separated oil/gas compressors like the york and sanden.
I wonder which is larger, the R12 or oil molecule? Gas (not gasoline, gases like oxygen) and oil dont mix, but refrigerant gas under pressure suggest to me that that gas molecule is smaller than the oil molecule (chemistry). If this is true, there would be NO WAY to recover the oil from the line back to the crankcase without allowing the gas to escape as well.
livinlow
+1y
wow such a big thread for 3 easy questions
1. you use 410 pag oil
2. no need for an inline oiler fill with 8-10oz or oil.
3.Yes the nut on top is where the oil goes.
I had the same compressor on my mazda and it ran like a champ and then some,never had a problem at all.Pushed 200psi plus all day long on a 12 gal tank.
1. you use 410 pag oil
2. no need for an inline oiler fill with 8-10oz or oil.
3.Yes the nut on top is where the oil goes.
I had the same compressor on my mazda and it ran like a champ and then some,never had a problem at all.Pushed 200psi plus all day long on a 12 gal tank.
ben_shady1
+1y
I remember Ernie had the baddest mod on his.... He had a 1/4 line ran off the port on the side of his motor to a 1/8 valve... when he turned on the compressor the valve would open and oil the compressor off of the oil from his motor. Was an awesome Idea. I ran my factory compressor on my old truck withut adding an oiler and it burned up in no time.... Hence the reason I went to a york. Been running a york for several years and the do need some oil on the intake side or they will get hot and but up the rings causeing it to blow or lock up or leak back (without a checkvalve). But on the other hand they are only like $99 for a rebuilt one so it's up to you. They will last a while without oil in the intake but they will burn up.... Trust me... I've bought several thru the years....lol
DawgsledMazda
+1y
yes you do need oil in the cylinders to keep them from scorching.
on the a/c thing. the refirgerant needs the oil to lube the entire system. the oil flows with the refrigerant, the gas does escape to the oilpan with the refrigerant, and the gas escapes while the heavier refrigerant stays in the bottom of the pan.
the system works like this:
refrigerant when going from a liquid to a gas, takes in massive amounts of heat, on a car it does this as it goes thru the expansion valve, then inside the evaporator is where it takes the heat exhanged from the interior of the car.
then the refrrigerant goes thru the compressor and get to be high pressure. when refrigerant goes into the condenser, and starts to cool, it starts to turn back to a liquid. when refrigerant goes from a gas to a liquid it gives off heat rapidly.
its doing all this as a mixture of gas and oil. without the oil the system would fail quickly. hell even the dryer (accumulator) needs oil...
the passage for oil in the York, goes from the crankcase to the front bearing, then to the head side of the top of the pump. the constant slinging of the oil by the crank is what dissipates the oil.
its not magic, and its easy to understand if you know how an a/c system actually works. instead of thinking the refrigerant just "ccols" the car. it doesnt, it takes heat out of the car by compressing it into a liquid and the expansion valve turning it back into a gas.
derek your wrong, the York with the oil mod done still needs oil in the cylinders.
people post about yorks all the time, its simple, just do the oil mod and install an airtool oiler. they dont use much oil that way and if you want to feel all warm and fuzzy about your setup, intsall an oil/water seperator.
check the crankcase oil every couple weeks. with the oil mod done on a new or rebuilt compressor, you wont have to add much ever. if you run it hot without oil coming in, you will get the rings hot, ruin them and then it will need oil all the time.
or if you run a used work out compressor, you will also use alot of crankcase oil.
theres a reason the crankcase oil on a York is refrigerant oil...
on the a/c thing. the refirgerant needs the oil to lube the entire system. the oil flows with the refrigerant, the gas does escape to the oilpan with the refrigerant, and the gas escapes while the heavier refrigerant stays in the bottom of the pan.
the system works like this:
refrigerant when going from a liquid to a gas, takes in massive amounts of heat, on a car it does this as it goes thru the expansion valve, then inside the evaporator is where it takes the heat exhanged from the interior of the car.
then the refrrigerant goes thru the compressor and get to be high pressure. when refrigerant goes into the condenser, and starts to cool, it starts to turn back to a liquid. when refrigerant goes from a gas to a liquid it gives off heat rapidly.
its doing all this as a mixture of gas and oil. without the oil the system would fail quickly. hell even the dryer (accumulator) needs oil...
the passage for oil in the York, goes from the crankcase to the front bearing, then to the head side of the top of the pump. the constant slinging of the oil by the crank is what dissipates the oil.
its not magic, and its easy to understand if you know how an a/c system actually works. instead of thinking the refrigerant just "ccols" the car. it doesnt, it takes heat out of the car by compressing it into a liquid and the expansion valve turning it back into a gas.
derek your wrong, the York with the oil mod done still needs oil in the cylinders.
people post about yorks all the time, its simple, just do the oil mod and install an airtool oiler. they dont use much oil that way and if you want to feel all warm and fuzzy about your setup, intsall an oil/water seperator.
check the crankcase oil every couple weeks. with the oil mod done on a new or rebuilt compressor, you wont have to add much ever. if you run it hot without oil coming in, you will get the rings hot, ruin them and then it will need oil all the time.
or if you run a used work out compressor, you will also use alot of crankcase oil.
theres a reason the crankcase oil on a York is refrigerant oil...
dssur
+1y
Originally posted by DawgsledMazda
its not magic, and its easy to understand if you know how an a/c system actually works. instead of thinking the refrigerant just "cools" the car. it doesnt, it takes heat out of the car by compressing it into a liquid and the expansion valve turning it back into a gas.
haha your right its not magic, any first year college student learns PV=nRT in Chem 101, which is the principle on how AC works.
In fact, gas laws can also tell you why the York draws so much oil when used as an air compressor compared to using it as an AC compressor.
The oil feed is not for oiling the piston, at least not singularly. The purpose of the oil feed is to lubricate the front seal. There is no oil pump in the york to distribute oil, and adding one would add complexity. The suction of the inlet draws crank oil up around the front seal. When used as an AC compressor, the low presure side is at around ~50 psi. Which means there is positive pressure on that feed hole, and the draw of the piston on the downstroke has to be greater than 50 psi to draw oil up around the seal.
But when you use it as an air pump, the inlet pressure is around 1 atm. The piston on the downstroke will easily exceed 0 psi and it draws oil up around the seal and into the chamber.
This is why yorks puke oil when used as air pumps, this is why people plug that hole. Likely the burning up comes from not lubricating the front seal and breaking down the oil. Also, AC high pressure is around 130psi, easily less than the lowest a minitrucker would expect.
The oil feed likely supplies only a very small amount of oil to the lines, and this is why people can (and have) run the old AC compressors as AC compressors for years and years and years without adding oil, not that the oil is being recirculated.
Sorry Mike. I disagree. I dont have to add oil to my home air compressor, I dont add any to my electric air compressor on my truck. The York burnups are likely from exceeding the design in my opinion, not from not oiling the piston.
its not magic, and its easy to understand if you know how an a/c system actually works. instead of thinking the refrigerant just "cools" the car. it doesnt, it takes heat out of the car by compressing it into a liquid and the expansion valve turning it back into a gas.
haha your right its not magic, any first year college student learns PV=nRT in Chem 101, which is the principle on how AC works.
In fact, gas laws can also tell you why the York draws so much oil when used as an air compressor compared to using it as an AC compressor.
The oil feed is not for oiling the piston, at least not singularly. The purpose of the oil feed is to lubricate the front seal. There is no oil pump in the york to distribute oil, and adding one would add complexity. The suction of the inlet draws crank oil up around the front seal. When used as an AC compressor, the low presure side is at around ~50 psi. Which means there is positive pressure on that feed hole, and the draw of the piston on the downstroke has to be greater than 50 psi to draw oil up around the seal.
But when you use it as an air pump, the inlet pressure is around 1 atm. The piston on the downstroke will easily exceed 0 psi and it draws oil up around the seal and into the chamber.
This is why yorks puke oil when used as air pumps, this is why people plug that hole. Likely the burning up comes from not lubricating the front seal and breaking down the oil. Also, AC high pressure is around 130psi, easily less than the lowest a minitrucker would expect.
The oil feed likely supplies only a very small amount of oil to the lines, and this is why people can (and have) run the old AC compressors as AC compressors for years and years and years without adding oil, not that the oil is being recirculated.
Sorry Mike. I disagree. I dont have to add oil to my home air compressor, I dont add any to my electric air compressor on my truck. The York burnups are likely from exceeding the design in my opinion, not from not oiling the piston.